Super Nuke Bros. Forum

The forum of the highly anticipated Flash game "Super Nuke Bros. Melee".
 
HomeHome  CalendarCalendar  FAQFAQ  SearchSearch  MemberlistMemberlist  UsergroupsUsergroups  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  

Share | 
 

 Hopes and Wishes for Super Nuke Bros. Melee

Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1, 2
AuthorMessage
Evilagram
Beastly Brawler
Beastly Brawler
avatar

Number of posts : 85
Registration date : 2009-10-11

PostSubject: Re: Hopes and Wishes for Super Nuke Bros. Melee   Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:15 am

Callum Stamp wrote:
Evilagram wrote:
Callum Stamp wrote:
Evilagram wrote:
My only hope and wish at this point in time is decent animations. The rest is taking care of itself at this point.

In particular the falcon punch. That single animation matters most in the game, in my personal opinion. The work they did on the brawl version of the falcon punch is absolutely incredible in theory and realization, only matched in execution by some of Ganondorf's attacks. You get that right, or do it better than brawl, and you have won the jackpot.
You do have to realize that some of the characters in the demo are like a year old. I've grown in animation alot because of this and other projects, and I assure that I will bring the best that I can to this game.

I realize that, and would like to see where along this line of thought you get away with not fixing those animations.
They're just in the past now. I think it's better to move forward and add more, I mean, everyone wants more characters!
And fixing animations just takes generally long. (.fla issues) - but we've done it with a few things like Mario's Fireball, Sonic's
run animation and some other stuff.

Yes, move along to the future where you can add more bad animations.

Having a small group of really well developed characters is preferable to a large cast of poorly moving misfits, and Brawl is a good proof of this (Although their animations were done really well in most cases, so this is more true in a gameplay sense.)
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Hoeloe
Admin
Admin
avatar

Male Number of posts : 354
Age : 25
Location : UK, Harrogate
Registration date : 2009-02-16

PostSubject: Re: Hopes and Wishes for Super Nuke Bros. Melee   Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:18 am

Evilagram wrote:


Yes, move along to the future where you can add more bad animations.

Having a small group of really well developed characters is preferable to a large cast of poorly moving misfits, and Brawl is a good proof of this (Although their animations were done really well in most cases, so this is more true in a gameplay sense.)

Listen, he's already said that he's getting better all the time, and where possible, redoing old animations.

Not all the old animations need redoing, and the ones that do, are. We are trying our best to make this game look fantastic, but if we went back to redo all the animations every time we got better at animating, it would be an infinite cycle, as reanimating them will make the animator better at animating. Therefore, we do our best, and judge later, redoing those that need it.

Examples are Clouds Blade Beam, Mario's Fireball and Sonic's run.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://supernukebros.moonfruit.com/
Evilagram
Beastly Brawler
Beastly Brawler
avatar

Number of posts : 85
Registration date : 2009-10-11

PostSubject: Re: Hopes and Wishes for Super Nuke Bros. Melee   Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:32 am

Hoeloe wrote:
Evilagram wrote:


Yes, move along to the future where you can add more bad animations.

Having a small group of really well developed characters is preferable to a large cast of poorly moving misfits, and Brawl is a good proof of this (Although their animations were done really well in most cases, so this is more true in a gameplay sense.)

Listen, he's already said that he's getting better all the time, and where possible, redoing old animations.

Not all the old animations need redoing, and the ones that do, are. We are trying our best to make this game look fantastic, but if we went back to redo all the animations every time we got better at animating, it would be an infinite cycle, as reanimating them will make the animator better at animating. Therefore, we do our best, and judge later, redoing those that need it.

Examples are Clouds Blade Beam, Mario's Fireball and Sonic's run.

Examples also include mario's cape, fireball (side smash), melee combo, and the end of his tornado. Basically everything that is supposed to carry weight and deliver an impact. I'd list moves from other characters, but I think that's enough to tell you what general category needs work.

Simple rules for improvement are that strong attacks carry strong anticipation, try exaggerating a bit, and you might hit on the proper amount (real life is more exaggerated than people tend to believe, so people make stuff duller than it actually is.) Anticipation is made stronger by vibration, which carries power. Vibration principles rely mostly on the plotting of multiple paths of motion, and animating for each.

A strong attack has wide spacing, and short timing. Straight lines of motion carry more power than arcs. A good way to improve the power of any motion is to delete the actual frame of contact, and to stretch the previous frame so that it contacts. This creates more change in the motion, and very subtly conveys more power. The audience can't see it, but they feel it.

A good rule of thumb is to ease everything that could need easing. The exception to this rule is robots, who presumably can function with no need to accelerate or slow down. Humans and animals however need to tense muscles and follow through with acceleration and velocity.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Hoeloe
Admin
Admin
avatar

Male Number of posts : 354
Age : 25
Location : UK, Harrogate
Registration date : 2009-02-16

PostSubject: Re: Hopes and Wishes for Super Nuke Bros. Melee   Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:36 am

Evilagram wrote:


Examples also include mario's cape, fireball (side smash), melee combo, and the end of his tornado. Basically everything that is supposed to carry weight and deliver an impact. I'd list moves from other characters, but I think that's enough to tell you what general category needs work.

Simple rules for improvement are that strong attacks carry strong anticipation, try exaggerating a bit, and you might hit on the proper amount (real life is more exaggerated than people tend to believe, so people make stuff duller than it actually is.) Anticipation is made stronger by vibration, which carries power. Vibration principles rely mostly on the plotting of multiple paths of motion, and animating for each.

A strong attack has wide spacing, and short timing. Straight lines of motion carry more power than arcs. A good way to improve the power of any motion is to delete the actual frame of contact, and to stretch the previous frame so that it contacts. This creates more change in the motion, and very subtly conveys more power. The audience can't see it, but they feel it.

A good rule of thumb is to ease everything that could need easing. The exception to this rule is robots, who presumably can function with no need to accelerate or slow down. Humans and animals however need to tense muscles and follow through with acceleration and velocity.

A lot of this has already been taken into account, and is in the animations. Though remember, it's just no feasable to redo all the animation in the game. It's taken over a year to get as much as we have, and we don't want to keep everyone waiting again like we did for the demo. We lost a lot of support because of that wait.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://supernukebros.moonfruit.com/
Evilagram
Beastly Brawler
Beastly Brawler
avatar

Number of posts : 85
Registration date : 2009-10-11

PostSubject: Re: Hopes and Wishes for Super Nuke Bros. Melee   Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:25 am

Hoeloe wrote:
Evilagram wrote:


Examples also include mario's cape, fireball (side smash), melee combo, and the end of his tornado. Basically everything that is supposed to carry weight and deliver an impact. I'd list moves from other characters, but I think that's enough to tell you what general category needs work.

Simple rules for improvement are that strong attacks carry strong anticipation, try exaggerating a bit, and you might hit on the proper amount (real life is more exaggerated than people tend to believe, so people make stuff duller than it actually is.) Anticipation is made stronger by vibration, which carries power. Vibration principles rely mostly on the plotting of multiple paths of motion, and animating for each.

A strong attack has wide spacing, and short timing. Straight lines of motion carry more power than arcs. A good way to improve the power of any motion is to delete the actual frame of contact, and to stretch the previous frame so that it contacts. This creates more change in the motion, and very subtly conveys more power. The audience can't see it, but they feel it.

A good rule of thumb is to ease everything that could need easing. The exception to this rule is robots, who presumably can function with no need to accelerate or slow down. Humans and animals however need to tense muscles and follow through with acceleration and velocity.

A lot of this has already been taken into account, and is in the animations. Though remember, it's just no feasable to redo all the animation in the game. It's taken over a year to get as much as we have, and we don't want to keep everyone waiting again like we did for the demo. We lost a lot of support because of that wait.

And how does support help you? You're not out to make money (presumably) you're out to make a good game. Unless support can somehow improve the game, via an open source model of production, it has little to no impact on you.

Next, fixing it doesn't take much effort. Fixing all the animations of one character (excluding some more complex motions such as walking, which require some more thought) takes about 80 minutes, given the number of animations each character currently has in your scheme.

This takes into account that you're tweening, I work in frame by frame. It would take me a 40 minute period per animation given my working methods (namely that it takes as much effort to fix as it does to make it in the first place). Big difference is that my animations tend to come out good on my first test, so I have less need to fix them. I have a theory that being able to test your animations at any time actually makes them worse, an idea related to by Milt Kahl, who was known for only using video tests of his animations near the end of the process to "see how it was getting along". Richard Williams was skeptical of this and had good reasons to be so, but I think Milt Kahl hit on something. That and Milt Kahl was honestly the better animator, although both are truly legendary.


I'd also like to note that when I say ease, I don't mean the built in ease, which frankly gives you all of no control, and is far too limited for the dynamic required in most motions.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Hoeloe
Admin
Admin
avatar

Male Number of posts : 354
Age : 25
Location : UK, Harrogate
Registration date : 2009-02-16

PostSubject: Re: Hopes and Wishes for Super Nuke Bros. Melee   Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:51 am

Ok, first of all, it takes far longer than 80 minutes, since you are forgetting the lag in the .fla.

Secondly, lets stop this argument now.

We will improve older animations where we feel it is neccessary. Where older animations could look significantly better if redone (and I mean a big noticable difference), then we will. If not, then there really is little point, because the ratio of work:gain is unbalanced.

We are out to make a good game, yet we also accept the fact that it can't be absolutely perfect. We will try to make it as perfect as we can, but redoing every animation every time the animator improves is inefficient, and just not worth it.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://supernukebros.moonfruit.com/
Evilagram
Beastly Brawler
Beastly Brawler
avatar

Number of posts : 85
Registration date : 2009-10-11

PostSubject: Re: Hopes and Wishes for Super Nuke Bros. Melee   Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:59 pm

Hoeloe wrote:
Ok, first of all, it takes far longer than 80 minutes, since you are forgetting the lag in the .fla.

Secondly, lets stop this argument now.

We will improve older animations where we feel it is neccessary. Where older animations could look significantly better if redone (and I mean a big noticable difference), then we will. If not, then there really is little point, because the ratio of work:gain is unbalanced.

We are out to make a good game, yet we also accept the fact that it can't be absolutely perfect. We will try to make it as perfect as we can, but redoing every animation every time the animator improves is inefficient, and just not worth it.

From the chat, you claimed that Callum has improved in the time it took to make the game, but not enough to make a real difference. On that point you are correct, it would be foolhardy to renovate the game. Luckily animation is much more solid than other artistic disciplines, and concepts and corrections can be conveyed by simple word of mouth or an illustrated diagram. In some ways I like animation a lot better than other art in that there is an essential "perfect" (the skill bounds are hard to measure, and may possibly be infinite) method to basically anything and that it can be communicated very easily from one person to another. You guys using tweens and symbols makes it even simpler.

The lag in the FLA is a tricky problem with no simple solution. I don't know how things are organized precisely within the fla, so I cannot offer a solution that would be specific enough to greatly effect your case. The only surefire universal solution would be to restructure from scratch, but I doubt that solution would be practical by any standard given the amount that the code is split among the active elements and their precise hierarchy. I could say, "Oh you should have done it this way from the start", but that does us all of no good now. Lag creators within the FLA include, sprites with a high number of vertices, gradients, and smoothing, or tracing algorithms. You may want to consider converting animations featuring multiple symbols directly into frames with the layers merged, and symbols cleared from the library when you're finished (ideally keeping the parts of characters used for animation in a separate file devoted to creating and editing animations for that character). At the point where you're at, anything that can be done to optimize the FLA file is preferable, even the temporary solution of exporting a good half of it into another file for merger when you're done optimizing.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Callum Stamp
Admin
Admin
avatar

Male Number of posts : 570
Age : 26
Location : The Netherlands
Registration date : 2009-02-15

PostSubject: Re: Hopes and Wishes for Super Nuke Bros. Melee   Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:19 pm

Evilagram wrote:
Hoeloe wrote:
Ok, first of all, it takes far longer than 80 minutes, since you are forgetting the lag in the .fla.

Secondly, lets stop this argument now.

We will improve older animations where we feel it is neccessary. Where older animations could look significantly better if redone (and I mean a big noticable difference), then we will. If not, then there really is little point, because the ratio of work:gain is unbalanced.

We are out to make a good game, yet we also accept the fact that it can't be absolutely perfect. We will try to make it as perfect as we can, but redoing every animation every time the animator improves is inefficient, and just not worth it.

From the chat, you claimed that Callum has improved in the time it took to make the game, but not enough to make a real difference. On that point you are correct, it would be foolhardy to renovate the game. Luckily animation is much more solid than other artistic disciplines, and concepts and corrections can be conveyed by simple word of mouth or an illustrated diagram. In some ways I like animation a lot better than other art in that there is an essential "perfect" (the skill bounds are hard to measure, and may possibly be infinite) method to basically anything and that it can be communicated very easily from one person to another. You guys using tweens and symbols makes it even simpler.

The lag in the FLA is a tricky problem with no simple solution. I don't know how things are organized precisely within the fla, so I cannot offer a solution that would be specific enough to greatly effect your case. The only surefire universal solution would be to restructure from scratch, but I doubt that solution would be practical by any standard given the amount that the code is split among the active elements and their precise hierarchy. I could say, "Oh you should have done it this way from the start", but that does us all of no good now. Lag creators within the FLA include, sprites with a high number of vertices, gradients, and smoothing, or tracing algorithms. You may want to consider converting animations featuring multiple symbols directly into frames with the layers merged, and symbols cleared from the library when you're finished (ideally keeping the parts of characters used for animation in a separate file devoted to creating and editing animations for that character). At the point where you're at, anything that can be done to optimize the FLA file is preferable, even the temporary solution of exporting a good half of it into another file for merger when you're done optimizing.
even though he said "drop it", I think we're going through a bit too much fixing all that stuff just because one forum member suggests it done. hereby, drop it.

_________________
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://supernukebros.omgforum.net
itsameSMB
Furious Fighter
Furious Fighter


Male Number of posts : 109
Age : 25
Registration date : 2009-07-12

PostSubject: Re: Hopes and Wishes for Super Nuke Bros. Melee   Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:53 pm

Though not to solely perseverate on the matter, what's wrong with going back at the end to make some tweaks? You know, polishing it at the end when the aforementioned level of skill would be at it's relative peak?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Callum Stamp
Admin
Admin
avatar

Male Number of posts : 570
Age : 26
Location : The Netherlands
Registration date : 2009-02-15

PostSubject: Re: Hopes and Wishes for Super Nuke Bros. Melee   Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:57 pm

itsameSMB wrote:
Though not to solely perseverate on the matter, what's wrong with going back at the end to make some tweaks? You know, polishing it at the end when the aforementioned level of skill would be at it's relative peak?
It's not bad! Just not worth losing time for right now. Right now.

_________________
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://supernukebros.omgforum.net
Evilagram
Beastly Brawler
Beastly Brawler
avatar

Number of posts : 85
Registration date : 2009-10-11

PostSubject: Re: Hopes and Wishes for Super Nuke Bros. Melee   Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:30 pm

itsameSMB wrote:
Though not to solely perseverate on the matter, what's wrong with going back at the end to make some tweaks? You know, polishing it at the end when the aforementioned level of skill would be at it's relative peak?

Trouble with doing things at the end is that you're building on a shaky base. If you've ever taken a life drawing class, then you'd know that the first few seconds are absolutely critical to the way the end result turns out. A lot of things work this way.

Callum Stamp wrote:
itsameSMB wrote:
Though not to solely perseverate on the matter, what's wrong with going back at the end to make some tweaks? You know, polishing it at the end when the aforementioned level of skill would be at it's relative peak?
It's not bad! Just not worth losing time for right now. Right now.

And what is the current agenda exactly? Because if you're seriously working on developing story mode before finalizing the engine, then you're in for trouble.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Callum Stamp
Admin
Admin
avatar

Male Number of posts : 570
Age : 26
Location : The Netherlands
Registration date : 2009-02-15

PostSubject: Re: Hopes and Wishes for Super Nuke Bros. Melee   Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:32 pm

Evilagram wrote:
itsameSMB wrote:
Though not to solely perseverate on the matter, what's wrong with going back at the end to make some tweaks? You know, polishing it at the end when the aforementioned level of skill would be at it's relative peak?

Trouble with doing things at the end is that you're building on a shaky base. If you've ever taken a life drawing class, then you'd know that the first few seconds are absolutely critical to the way the end result turns out. A lot of things work this way.
I'm so glad you're not in our development team.

_________________
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://supernukebros.omgforum.net
Evilagram
Beastly Brawler
Beastly Brawler
avatar

Number of posts : 85
Registration date : 2009-10-11

PostSubject: Re: Hopes and Wishes for Super Nuke Bros. Melee   Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:18 pm

Callum Stamp wrote:
Evilagram wrote:
itsameSMB wrote:
Though not to solely perseverate on the matter, what's wrong with going back at the end to make some tweaks? You know, polishing it at the end when the aforementioned level of skill would be at it's relative peak?

Trouble with doing things at the end is that you're building on a shaky base. If you've ever taken a life drawing class, then you'd know that the first few seconds are absolutely critical to the way the end result turns out. A lot of things work this way.
I'm so glad you're not in our development team.

Yeah, spending hours of my free time optimizing the project and leaving extensive notes and documentation. What a nightmare. Who could stand a guy like that?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Callum Stamp
Admin
Admin
avatar

Male Number of posts : 570
Age : 26
Location : The Netherlands
Registration date : 2009-02-15

PostSubject: Re: Hopes and Wishes for Super Nuke Bros. Melee   Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:52 pm

Evilagram wrote:
Callum Stamp wrote:
Evilagram wrote:
itsameSMB wrote:
Though not to solely perseverate on the matter, what's wrong with going back at the end to make some tweaks? You know, polishing it at the end when the aforementioned level of skill would be at it's relative peak?

Trouble with doing things at the end is that you're building on a shaky base. If you've ever taken a life drawing class, then you'd know that the first few seconds are absolutely critical to the way the end result turns out. A lot of things work this way.
I'm so glad you're not in our development team.

Yeah, spending hours of my free time optimizing the project and leaving extensive notes and documentation. What a nightmare. Who could stand a guy like that?
Haha. Well, truthfully you could be a great source of comic relief.

_________________
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://supernukebros.omgforum.net
Star54321
Neutral Nuke Brother
avatar

Male Number of posts : 41
Age : 31
Location : UK
Registration date : 2009-10-08

PostSubject: Re: Hopes and Wishes for Super Nuke Bros. Melee   Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:23 pm

Callum Stamp wrote:
Evilagram wrote:
Callum Stamp wrote:
Evilagram wrote:
itsameSMB wrote:
Though not to solely perseverate on the matter, what's wrong with going back at the end to make some tweaks? You know, polishing it at the end when the aforementioned level of skill would be at it's relative peak?

Trouble with doing things at the end is that you're building on a shaky base. If you've ever taken a life drawing class, then you'd know that the first few seconds are absolutely critical to the way the end result turns out. A lot of things work this way.
I'm so glad you're not in our development team.

Yeah, spending hours of my free time optimizing the project and leaving extensive notes and documentation. What a nightmare. Who could stand a guy like that?
Haha. Well, truthfully you could be a great source of comic relief.

First you hate him.... now you love him....... I'm confused.... *faints*
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Evilagram
Beastly Brawler
Beastly Brawler
avatar

Number of posts : 85
Registration date : 2009-10-11

PostSubject: Re: Hopes and Wishes for Super Nuke Bros. Melee   Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:45 pm

Callum Stamp wrote:
Evilagram wrote:
Callum Stamp wrote:
Evilagram wrote:
itsameSMB wrote:
Though not to solely perseverate on the matter, what's wrong with going back at the end to make some tweaks? You know, polishing it at the end when the aforementioned level of skill would be at it's relative peak?

Trouble with doing things at the end is that you're building on a shaky base. If you've ever taken a life drawing class, then you'd know that the first few seconds are absolutely critical to the way the end result turns out. A lot of things work this way.
I'm so glad you're not in our development team.

Yeah, spending hours of my free time optimizing the project and leaving extensive notes and documentation. What a nightmare. Who could stand a guy like that?
Haha. Well, truthfully you could be a great source of comic relief.
I do what I can to do things fun and effectively. Other people's definitions of fun however depress me.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
GoldenYuiitusin
True Pursuer
True Pursuer
avatar

Male Number of posts : 667
Age : 24
Location : Here, but not here at the same time. Strange, isn't it?
Registration date : 2010-01-12

PostSubject: Re: Hopes and Wishes for Super Nuke Bros. Melee   Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:02 pm

You don't mind if I post here, guys?

Basically my sig is my suggestion. Mewtwo vs. Lucario for the win.

Oh and Evilagram, shut up.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Hoeloe
Admin
Admin
avatar

Male Number of posts : 354
Age : 25
Location : UK, Harrogate
Registration date : 2009-02-16

PostSubject: Re: Hopes and Wishes for Super Nuke Bros. Melee   Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:43 pm

GoldenYuiitusin wrote:
You don't mind if I post here, guys?

Basically my sig is my suggestion. Mewtwo vs. Lucario for the win.

Oh and Evilagram, shut up.

Evilagram hasn't been on these forums for a while.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://supernukebros.moonfruit.com/
GoldenYuiitusin
True Pursuer
True Pursuer
avatar

Male Number of posts : 667
Age : 24
Location : Here, but not here at the same time. Strange, isn't it?
Registration date : 2010-01-12

PostSubject: Re: Hopes and Wishes for Super Nuke Bros. Melee   Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:41 am

Hoeloe wrote:
GoldenYuiitusin wrote:
You don't mind if I post here, guys?

Basically my sig is my suggestion. Mewtwo vs. Lucario for the win.

Oh and Evilagram, shut up.

Evilagram hasn't been on these forums for a while.
*Checks Evilagram's last sign in*
Oh sh-
Sorry 'bout that... Embarassed
Back to top Go down
View user profile
DarthDragon
Crazy Combatant
Crazy Combatant
avatar

Male Number of posts : 214
Age : 24
Location : On that building over to the left where I can easily get a clear shot at your window.
Registration date : 2009-10-31

PostSubject: Re: Hopes and Wishes for Super Nuke Bros. Melee   Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:46 am

Hoeloe wrote:
GoldenYuiitusin wrote:
You don't mind if I post here, guys?

Basically my sig is my suggestion. Mewtwo vs. Lucario for the win.

Oh and Evilagram, shut up.

Evilagram hasn't been on these forums for a while.
I thought he had a permaban. Guess I thought wrong...
Back to top Go down
View user profile
GoldenYuiitusin
True Pursuer
True Pursuer
avatar

Male Number of posts : 667
Age : 24
Location : Here, but not here at the same time. Strange, isn't it?
Registration date : 2010-01-12

PostSubject: Re: Hopes and Wishes for Super Nuke Bros. Melee   Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:18 pm

He does, I believe.
I responded to an old topic....
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Hopes and Wishes for Super Nuke Bros. Melee   

Back to top Go down
 
Hopes and Wishes for Super Nuke Bros. Melee
Back to top 
Page 2 of 2Go to page : Previous  1, 2

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Super Nuke Bros. Forum :: General :: Welcome to Super Nuke Bros. Forums!-
Jump to: